Right. If nothing justifies rape, killing, destruction, kidnap - then Israel is NOT justified right now in what they are doing to the Palestinians, and these people should condemn it strongly. More strongly than they are condemning a "thought experiement" by a writer who has done no actual real life violence. I mean, if you are against violence and nothing justifies it ... then condemn it ... right?
I think it’s important to emphasize that Ta-Nehisi Coates’ thought experiment does *not* apply to Zionism: Zionists like Ze'ev Jabotinsky began committing terrorist attacks against Palestinians in *1920*, and—as much as hasbarists would have you believe otherwise—it was the Germans and not the Palestinians who did the Holocaust. There’s a reason so many Holocaust survivors chose the US over Israel!
As Hannah Arendt describes, Israeli victimhood in the Holocaust was actively constructed in the early 1960s as a distraction from such embarrassments as the mass publicity in the 1950s around Rezső Kasztner’s collaboration with the Nazis, as well as earlier bits of inconvenient history such as the 1933 Haavara Agreement, which had broken the global Jewish boycott of Nazi Germany.
It’s important to remember: émigré Zionist Jews were not among the good guys during WWII, and émigré Zionist Jews were not the victims of the Holocaust: Zionist Jews had spent decades emigrating from Europe by 1941, and consequently the victims of the Holocaust were disproportionately non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews who had chosen to stay behind. Again: there’s a reason so many Holocaust survivors chose the US over Israel!
I agree with you about who the early Zionists were mostly made up of, and that they were acting out of militancy and territorial ambition rather than trauma. I’m not going to go as far as to say the thought experiment cannot apply to *any* Zionists. I don’t see any reason to make that generalization and I don’t think Coates would either.
Hence the stipulation that it was Germans who did the Holocaust, not the Palestinians: one could much more easily imagine the thought experiment applying with regard to anger towards Germany.
One of the weirder things with postwar Zionism (and even Kahanism) is cynicism in how much it lets Germany off the hook: for every Adolph Eichmann there were dozens or hundreds of known ex-Nazis who not even Simon Weisenthal seems to have bothered with.
EDIT: not to be overly pedantic, but I think it’s also important to remember that “does not apply to any Zionists” is not the logical contrapositive (i.e. equivalent) of “applies to Zionists [as a group]”. “Does not apply to Zionism”, by contrast, does indeed mean “does not apply to all Zionists” (i.e. may apply to some Zionists incidentally and not as an aspect inherent to being Zionist).
The reason I would say this distinction is not overly pedantic is that eliding logical distinctions like this is a big part of how Zionists throw non-Zionist Jews under the bus.
Thank you for this Jasper. With respect to your mother’s message, it indeed isn’t an imaginary scenario. It happens regularly to the Palestinians in Ga’za seeking medical treatment for cancer in Israel because Ga’za lacks sufficient resources for treating such patients and cases.
“A thirty-eight-year-old Palestinian father of two living in the Gaza Strip was one of many to report this experience in 2007. Diagnosed with Hodgkin’s lymphoma, he petitioned to obtain entry to seek treatment at an Israeli hospital but was questioned and extorted as he tried to cross the Erez checkpoint. Interrogated for hours, he was asked to inform on his brother and other relatives, after which the Israeli interrogator threatened to withhold his access to treatment, telling him: “You have cancer, and it will soon spread to your brain, as long as you don’t help us.” After being forced to wait for over ten hours, he missed his appointment and returned home. Al Mezan Center for Human Rights reports that Israeli practices of extorting and arresting Palestinian cancer patients as “they travel to and from the Gaza Strip are ongoing and have documented such cases up to 2023. Al Mezan and Physicians for Human Rights–Israel have documented these Israeli practices, which they argue may constitute a war crime for violating international humanitarian law, and violate Article 31 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”
Nothing justified Oct 7 but Oct 7 justifies the murder, torture, rape and extermination of Gaza. My head is going to explode from the cognitive dissonance.
Stumbled upon your substack (we went to college together!) and happy to see the writer you've become. I recall telling my father that I was aghast about the genocide unfolding in Gaza back in May and was soon met with "so now you're an antisemite?" As I've lived abroad the last 10 years, it's clear that the majority of Americans haven't reckoned with our own past horrors and remain obdurate to criticism of the terror we enact internationally. Unfortunately, with Trump's election, America's cruelty likely will progress into something new and insane.
Great to hear from you old friend but sorry to hear you’ve become a vicious antisemite. appreciate the note—and yes, god what the next four years have in store. All the best.
I think of women who have killed their abusers, after years and years of torture, of themselves and their children, and wonder who wouldn't do anything to escape? To get their children to safety?
That quotation from the AJC is rich. Never an excuse for rape, torture or murder, but donate money to us so we can help Israel continue raping, torturing and murdering Palestinians. The hasbara is strong with this one.
Excellent writing. Clear and coherent throughout. Is there any reason you don't mention Norman Finkelstein, who picked up on the Nat Turner comparison early on?
Right. If nothing justifies rape, killing, destruction, kidnap - then Israel is NOT justified right now in what they are doing to the Palestinians, and these people should condemn it strongly. More strongly than they are condemning a "thought experiement" by a writer who has done no actual real life violence. I mean, if you are against violence and nothing justifies it ... then condemn it ... right?
Right? I nearly choked on that tweet from AJC Global. Irony is rolling in its grave.
I think it’s important to emphasize that Ta-Nehisi Coates’ thought experiment does *not* apply to Zionism: Zionists like Ze'ev Jabotinsky began committing terrorist attacks against Palestinians in *1920*, and—as much as hasbarists would have you believe otherwise—it was the Germans and not the Palestinians who did the Holocaust. There’s a reason so many Holocaust survivors chose the US over Israel!
As Hannah Arendt describes, Israeli victimhood in the Holocaust was actively constructed in the early 1960s as a distraction from such embarrassments as the mass publicity in the 1950s around Rezső Kasztner’s collaboration with the Nazis, as well as earlier bits of inconvenient history such as the 1933 Haavara Agreement, which had broken the global Jewish boycott of Nazi Germany.
It’s important to remember: émigré Zionist Jews were not among the good guys during WWII, and émigré Zionist Jews were not the victims of the Holocaust: Zionist Jews had spent decades emigrating from Europe by 1941, and consequently the victims of the Holocaust were disproportionately non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews who had chosen to stay behind. Again: there’s a reason so many Holocaust survivors chose the US over Israel!
I agree with you about who the early Zionists were mostly made up of, and that they were acting out of militancy and territorial ambition rather than trauma. I’m not going to go as far as to say the thought experiment cannot apply to *any* Zionists. I don’t see any reason to make that generalization and I don’t think Coates would either.
I definitely recommend Arendt’s “Eichmann in Jerusalem” if you haven’t [read it] already.
Hence the stipulation that it was Germans who did the Holocaust, not the Palestinians: one could much more easily imagine the thought experiment applying with regard to anger towards Germany.
One of the weirder things with postwar Zionism (and even Kahanism) is cynicism in how much it lets Germany off the hook: for every Adolph Eichmann there were dozens or hundreds of known ex-Nazis who not even Simon Weisenthal seems to have bothered with.
EDIT: not to be overly pedantic, but I think it’s also important to remember that “does not apply to any Zionists” is not the logical contrapositive (i.e. equivalent) of “applies to Zionists [as a group]”. “Does not apply to Zionism”, by contrast, does indeed mean “does not apply to all Zionists” (i.e. may apply to some Zionists incidentally and not as an aspect inherent to being Zionist).
The reason I would say this distinction is not overly pedantic is that eliding logical distinctions like this is a big part of how Zionists throw non-Zionist Jews under the bus.
Former sociaist Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, dipped toe into this area nearly a decade ago and was promptly cancelled (along with once UK great hope, Jeremy Corbyn). https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/29/ken-livingstone-marxist-book-lenni-brenner-defence-israel-comments
Great callback
Thank you for this Jasper. With respect to your mother’s message, it indeed isn’t an imaginary scenario. It happens regularly to the Palestinians in Ga’za seeking medical treatment for cancer in Israel because Ga’za lacks sufficient resources for treating such patients and cases.
“A thirty-eight-year-old Palestinian father of two living in the Gaza Strip was one of many to report this experience in 2007. Diagnosed with Hodgkin’s lymphoma, he petitioned to obtain entry to seek treatment at an Israeli hospital but was questioned and extorted as he tried to cross the Erez checkpoint. Interrogated for hours, he was asked to inform on his brother and other relatives, after which the Israeli interrogator threatened to withhold his access to treatment, telling him: “You have cancer, and it will soon spread to your brain, as long as you don’t help us.” After being forced to wait for over ten hours, he missed his appointment and returned home. Al Mezan Center for Human Rights reports that Israeli practices of extorting and arresting Palestinian cancer patients as “they travel to and from the Gaza Strip are ongoing and have documented such cases up to 2023. Al Mezan and Physicians for Human Rights–Israel have documented these Israeli practices, which they argue may constitute a war crime for violating international humanitarian law, and violate Article 31 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.”
Nothing justified Oct 7 but Oct 7 justifies the murder, torture, rape and extermination of Gaza. My head is going to explode from the cognitive dissonance.
Stumbled upon your substack (we went to college together!) and happy to see the writer you've become. I recall telling my father that I was aghast about the genocide unfolding in Gaza back in May and was soon met with "so now you're an antisemite?" As I've lived abroad the last 10 years, it's clear that the majority of Americans haven't reckoned with our own past horrors and remain obdurate to criticism of the terror we enact internationally. Unfortunately, with Trump's election, America's cruelty likely will progress into something new and insane.
Great to hear from you old friend but sorry to hear you’ve become a vicious antisemite. appreciate the note—and yes, god what the next four years have in store. All the best.
Regarding the bad-faith Twitter commentary: English-language Zionism all too often comes across like Zionism with a concussion.
Hebrew-language Zionism, for better or worse, at least tends to be more honest in its intentions, no?
(Oh the existential horror of the Liberal Zionist!)
(Shai Davidai doesn’t have a concussion, though. Shai Davidai is simply lying.)
I think of women who have killed their abusers, after years and years of torture, of themselves and their children, and wonder who wouldn't do anything to escape? To get their children to safety?
Nuanced and wonderfully written. Thank you!
Self defense is not violence. Read that again. Also, hit dogs holler.
That quotation from the AJC is rich. Never an excuse for rape, torture or murder, but donate money to us so we can help Israel continue raping, torturing and murdering Palestinians. The hasbara is strong with this one.
Really great writing. Thank you for your perspective.
Becuase Coates is parroting Hamas propaganda under the guise of "resistance" you stupid nazi fuck.
https://marlowe1.substack.com/p/happy-pesach-holiday-extra
Thank you for sharing this. ❤️
I've found myself really puzzled by a lot of a what I've read covering the message.
Mainly because I'm like "did we read the same book? Cause man that doesn't scan"
Excellent writing. Clear and coherent throughout. Is there any reason you don't mention Norman Finkelstein, who picked up on the Nat Turner comparison early on?
Must’ve missed that when it happened
Because he's a shitty writer who has a reputation that is utterly at odds with his talent.
Also he got all “hamas is really not responsible for gaza bring the shithole I describe even though it was running gaxa for decades”
And then used hamas run gaza as an excuse to side with rapists.
Are you really that stupid?
https://marlowe1.substack.com/p/hardboiled-stiff-by-michael-hemmingson